notevendarkyet | Item discussion: Godmodding/autoing vs. ... censorship?

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Item discussion: Godmodding/autoing vs. ... censorship?

This is regarding a recent discussion which started with a question what is the policy on

lil_chicago_ooc regarding slash. It devolved into a discussion of something entirely else.

Item one: I'm posting here, because posting on the ooc comm, since I am a mod, may carry more weight; but I really would like to hear your opinions on this, and when things are clarified, I'll make a post that will also be referenced on the profile of the comm, to avoid further confusion.

Item two: I am confused (and maybe - which I shouldn't be - a little angry) at the way my statement was questioned. My original answer came from interacting with writers who are truly outstanding, and through observing how they treat their writing partners. Did I go too far in responding to those comments? If so, I am sorry - but DO let me know if I have.

Item three: At least my idea of

little_chicago as one of a common playground. Where we, well, play together. It really makes sense to me that when you're borrowing someone else's toys where you play with that someone else, it is polite to ask.
In your own journal, you are free to write characters exactly as you wish. Those would be your versions of the characters.
But where we write together, and where what you post will be part of the expectation in how you RP the character in the comm? I think it is only fair to ask if the other writer is OK with their muse being written in a certain direction.
That doesn't mean you have to have an ok for every bit of dialogue, action, etc. But if I say, I am going to write a piece where Harry did NOT reject Justine when Thomas sent her over dressed only in a bow? (this is entirely theoretical, mind you!) I will ask Harry's mun. Heh, I will probably ask Thomas' mun too, to know how he would react to such a take.

Item four: Well, of course, there are exceptions. The most obvious being if you're doing a 'dissection of a scene' from canon. Or if you and the other mun have discussed a certain situation already and you know what their take is.

Item five: Where we play together, making decisions that you don't know the partner you're writing against agrees with? Isn't that, well, godmodding? (After a brief consultation with Wikipedia, maybe the term I should be using is Autoing. But in either case... something that is not covered by 'playing nice'.)

Item six: Telling you what to write (or not to), and how to write your muse, would be, well, putting it bluntly, censorship. This is NOT what I am aiming at, though I know what I'm describing, if taken to extremes, would be just that.
Once you have the opinion of the other mun, exactly WHAT is in your fic is entirely up to you. I am the kind of person who, if there is a remark about my representation of other muses, will change what I have written, but that is by no means obligatory.
Even if you don't have the other writer's permission, YOU COULD STILL WRITE IT. You can be a member of the comms, you can use the comm's prompts, and write it. Just please don't post on the comm unless you have an OK.
I'd be the person who would be OK with reading just about anything. If I don't think that what a fic implies about my muse is consistent with how I write them, I may ask that there is an author's note that states that the fic is NOT-rp-canon-compliant. I have put such labels on my work even without being asked in some cases.

Item seven: I think it's all about respect. Asking about another person's opinion when IT INVOLVES their muse is courteous - it's respectful. And for any community to function smoothly, respect is a very, very important building block.

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I think it's a matter of talking apples and oranges to be honest. (The discussion)

As muns who write in prompt communities, we're used to writing fic with our sandbox and adding a disclaimer at the bottom saying. The Harry I talked about in said fic has nothing to do with any Harry in the community. Just my twisted imagination.

I think the confusion lies in that it's not made clear (to newbies) that this is a fic/RP community rather than a community like TM only dedicated to Dresden Verse(s). Wherein the fics that we write here are connected to said RP in the community and the characters. That we're using it as a jumping off point. So to speak. At least that is what I'm assuming we're doing.

I could be wrong on that one. If I were to write a fic to the community it's in 'our world' and I would get permission from the muns or at least a heads up. Rather than it being my writing world/sandbox and I'm just expressing my artistic license and posting for others to enjoy in the community.

Just my 2 cents that that is where the confusion is lying with reference to writing fic/posting/playing/getting permissions. I believe they are thinking TM Dresdenverse style rather than fic/RP world with our characters in the sandbox.

... thank you! Yes, that makes sense. (Although the behaviour I am describing is also applied by some on TM in particular. Among muses who regularly RP together at least.)

I will edit the userinfo to try and make it more clear that way. I guess the fact that I know what I mean, and most of the people who voted on the polls on this journal know what I mean is misleading me in how clearly I have explained things...
Again, thanks. Your two cents? Worth a lot to me!

When you do the get permission in TM it's not because of the community though it's because you regularly RP in the community with certain pups. Not that that makes sense. LOL. What I mean is that TM is not a RP community so if you RP it's your choice to do it with a group and as a courtesy you get permission.

This community is set up where RP is part of it, the main part actually and we're using prompts as jumping off points rather than the main focus being prompts that we RP off of like in TM.

Now that I've made it as clear as mud. *g*

I think (like me) someone that's not used to RPing in communities. I rarely, very rarely indulge I mostly just write prompts, that we're not used to thinking the other way around. :) Which is probably why I think I can see where their confusion is coming from.

Hahaha I think the thing is clear as mud - but I do get exactly what you're saying.

Maybe the fact that for the prompt-based comms, I either write muses who are 'lonely' in their fandoms, or ones who are in active roleplay, no in-betweens. But whatever the case, when I post (to, say, TM), I either make a disclaimer, or post first to my journal and wait for feedback from the other muns before posting to the comm.

I don't know, maybe I've just been in a circle of writers who behave in a certain way out of courtesy. People who've been writing (a lot more than RP, some of them) for years. And they don't even have that rule spelled out for the comms we're together in, they just... do things that way. Maybe that's why I'm seeing the perceiving of these manners as an obstruction to writing as confusing.

*nods* Definitely I always post a disclaimer if that's the way I'm writing the fic. I also get permission if I'm using a specific muse that I'm RPing with/using in the fic. It's common courtesy to do that. A lot of times I'll write XYZ is not tied to anyone in the community unless they'd like it to be. :)

I think it comes from the RPside of things. Like I said I rarely RP and in my case in the Buffy fandom it's such a freaking revolving door of muns/pups that I only have a few that I interact with anymore. So I'll put a disclaimer that 'my' Angel isn't the Angel in TM. However, if I was in a Buffy/Angel community where there were a list of certain characters and we were all RPing together I would most definitely get permission before I posted to the community.

*absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anything here* Wait, is your Angel the one in the_bigshow? The one Henry was talking to briefly before I was a bad bad person and neglected him entirely?

Nope. Sadly I haven't had Gwen in the_bigshow in a long time. And further sadly, Gwen doesn't have an Angel to play with in the comms she's in. But she does have a Spike and Wesley so that's fun. LOL

Ahh. That was the only other Angel I could think of offhand. But, yes! Wesley is always fun, and Spike usually is too :)

I hear hear on number seven, and I think that's the glue that holds it all together. I mean, my approach on roleplay and roleplay related fic is basically what I did in the OOC comm the other day: "Hey, here's what I want to do with this plot point, anyone else have ideas or objections?" And then, discussion happens.

I really, really don't think we need rules to regulate behavior down to the last protocol. We're all adults here, or near enough I would imagine, and we're certainly all capable of treating each other with respect without needing to have our hand held through it.

There's really nothing here I don't agree whole heartedly with.

Most of us talk OOC about things all the time. We're plotting and joking around and so on and it's really easy to send another mun a message to plot things out. The rest of it seems common sense for me.

I guess I was thinking the community was two things:

1) A collective sandbox for all the dresden muses to play in the same 'verse, so to speak. (though how the tv guys fit in with the novel guys I'm not sure. So maybe two universes). But AUness could also be done. So multiple universes, but we'd use tags or notes or something to differentiate.

2) A Dresden-related community where we could post fic we write that's...Dresden related. The prompts kind of imply this, too.

That being said, it's apparently a sandbox where we can only post fic directly related to the one sandbox universe. (So, like, if I write something where Thomas falls back to the "Dark Side" so to speak and it has nothing to do with the RP verse he's been playing in, I can't post it to the comm. Or if, I write something more canon-based but in which I take another character [er, uhm. Lara or something] off into a place that Lara!mun isn't down with, even if I make a note that it has no bearing on such things, I stil can't post it in the comm. Or if I want to continue some of that AU!RP with younger!Thomas and ickle!Harry, and Maggie!whoDidn'tDie, that can't go in the comm).

Basically, my original thought for this comm was that it would be a single place for any of the Dresden stuff we might get into. Naturally, if we're playing with other people's characters we'd either get permission or make a note that it doesn't affect so-and-so, you've got no disagreement from me on that point. I'd just like to know what we're actually doing here specifically since I was envisioning something a bit more...fluid, I guess. :)

If this doesn't make much sense, blame my headache and ask me to explain better.

*is too lazy to sign in as Lara*

Lara: *waggles eyebrows* Just where were you going to take me, Thomas?

*facepalm*

Thomas: To the movies?

Lara: Reeeallly? What type of movies? Anything by Arturo? *laughs*

[ooc: Sorry she's in a playful mood tonight. She's been having fun pushing buttons and pulling strings.]

Thomas: I thought you'd have seen all his work by now.

[no prob!]

Lara: Not his latest. Care to join me, little brother?

Oh, I think that fluid is definitely acceptable. Within the 'sandbox', I think we can still have very different timelines and storylines.

But even if it's a fic that has nothing to do with any of the 'verses that we/you and anyone else storyline, if you're borrowing a muse, just ask if it's OK with the mun. For example, I'm up for my muses being borrowed for fics usually, and once the fic is posted, I can choose to say, yeah, that can be used, or no, that would be out of my character's storylines. However, if one of my muses is used heavily in a fic without my prior knowledge (theoretically, just for an example, a fic where Murph actually visits Thomas' flat regularly without Harry's knowledge, and has been since, well, Thomas moved out)? I may really raise a fuss (if I see it in the wrong mood). Or I may let it slide, but still go o.O! ... however, if you are writing a fic like that and ask me if it's ok to use my muse so? I am probably likely to say OK, look forward to reading what you make of it, and will probably be very excited when reading the fic.
... I guess it's about - expectations?

This 'shared sandbox' is not about making one 'verse and sticking to it, come rain or high weather. It is meant to be fluid, flexible. Anything that goes with the muns involved.

... I hope this makes sense?

Okay. That works more for me. I just seemed to get the impression from something said that LC was sticking to one 'verse and it made me go o.O? y'know?

*nodnod* oh yes. Again, I think the fact that I am using

hp_random as a base, and I know

semi_auto_magic at least is acquainted with that comm and knows what I'm talking about, is misleading me into being less than clear. on hp_random, the fics/storylines/rp can arc from... Marauders? Pre-marauder era - down to, so far, 27 years past the Deathly Hallows epilogue; and that's just time-wise.
In terms of AUs, anything that strikes the fancy of the writers.

... one of these days when I am awake enough to make sure I'm clear, I'll compile all of this together as... FAQ? Guidelines? I still think it's more common sense than slap-down rules...

I have to admit my confusion also stems from the implication that this is a Dresden-verse community for fic & RP, rather than an RP community that works like a sort of round-robin fic. If that makes sense.

Like Lara!mun, I'm used to writing in prompt communities and playing in my own sandbox. If I write Bob and Harry, I don't need to get the permission of anyone else writing Harry in that particular community because we're not interacting as muses on any level. We're just in the same comm, happily writing our own ficcage in response to the given prompts.

So for someone joining little_chicago expecting "fic" and "RP" to be two separate animals, the implied rules do sound restrictive and confusing.

So if I'm interpreting this all correctly ... Straight RP, sure; that I'll be happy to join in on. But I would be disinclined to post any of my Bob-fics here in response to a prompt because of the requirement to first check (and get implied approval of the plot) from any/all writers of characters referenced in that fic.

((Hi there, semi_auto_magic here feeling too lazy to log out))

In the comm that this one is supposed to be patterned after, everything kind of stems from the RPing and community based story telling. There are big sweeping story arcs that can and do effect dozens of the characters at once. Most of the writing that is posted there is in response to those stories. So they're less like straight fics and more like mini stories that flesh out and further the plot of the community.

For instance, one of the first story lines going on here is Maggie's return form the dead. Obviously, thats a big deal for a few characters including (but not limited too) Maggie, Thomas, Harry and Ebenezer. One of the first fics posted here was Maggie leaving Chicago shortly after her miracle return to recover and recuperate back at Eb's farm. If I have time, I'll likely post a fic from Harry's point of view in response to this.

Something to the effect of how even though he knows thats the right course of action and that she's better protected there ... but there's still a child's pain thats strangling him because she back and days ofter being home, she's left him again.

Now, If I'm going to use Thomas in that fic in a capacity more then just mentioning him, I'll probably AIM the mun or send her a copy of the fic after it's finished but before it's post out of courtesy.

And maybe it will be a strong enough piece that Thomas mun would want to RP off of it (and we would do so in the comments) or perhaps Molly will notice that Harry's feeling blue and she'll come to his apartment and try to cheer him up.

If you'd like to write a stand alone fic that's obviously fine. You can post on your journal.

Also, you could drop a link here for the rest of the comm to find the piece if your interested in sharing, but if your doing that and using a taken character, I'd prefer you to just drop the other typist a message that at least says "hey I wrote this fic, Harry's it it. I was going to link the community to it, do you mind?" And I'm sure you'll find that most people will read, tell you how great they think it is and encourage you to post it.

Or at the very least, if you don't contact the mun, when linking the comm there maybe use a "Harry used without permission" disclaimer.

Does this clear anything up? Does it still seem creatively stifling, because I would hate to dissuade you from the comm already ...

Thank you for outlining that. It helps clarify even more and pretty much confirms my thinking.

little_chicago is a sort of ongoing round robin kind of fic. A muse might set up a situation (like your example of Maggie's return from the dead) and other muses in the comm react to that with their own fics, which are really just continuations of the story. But to be polite, the writer should get the okay of any other muse in the comm they might reference in their part of the continuation.

So not stand alone fics in addition to RP, which is where I think the initial confusion (and some discomfort about the implied censoring/strictness of the rules) came from. Not only for myself but a few other TDF writers who might have joined except for their own uncertainty/misinterpretation of the user info. (To be honest, I was thinking "Whoa! Too narrow-minded for me!" when I read the initial thread that started this all and nearly quit then and there.)

So let me ask this. In my "20 Facts About Bob", #1 includes "...It was a young thirteen year old wizard by the name of Harry Dresden who first called him 'Bob.'" Should I also have contacted both Harry writers to get permission for that reference? Even though it was implied in the series but never actually stated?

Firstly, I'm glad you stuck around long enough for it to be clarified. I don't really think this is a bad system if everyone's on the same page, in fact its worked well for the writers in other comm's. It encourages people to be involved with each other on an in and out of character level which I think is way cooler then your typical "here are the prompts, dump your fics here" kind of system.

In regards to mun permission I think its a matter of judgment. If you think maybe, possibly, you should run something by a mun, why not do it? There aren't any requirements for posts here and no deadlines. I know all the muns (except you, which hopefully will change) I've never had an argument with any of them. All of them are respectful and accommodating in my experience. I've had a blast chatting\RPing\getting to know them all.

You'll never have to contact me about permission unless your situation is specific to Book!Harry. I feel like the show and the novels are completely separate entities and that's why we don't consider them duplicate muses (which aren't allowed because if we had to get multiple permissions from several writers, nothing would ever get written). And I'll admit, my knowledge of the show is kinda limited. I'm TV show friendly, but more of a fan of the books.

Even with my limited knowledge of the show that seems pretty canon to me. Its obvious to even me, who has only watched a handful of the TV shows, TV Bob is a father figure for TV Harry and I wouldn't think your taking much liberty there at all.

I don't really think this is a bad system if everyone's on the same page.

I think that was part of the problem. We weren't on the same page because I'd never encountered your kind of RP before. I'm used to more traditional RP communities. The concept of fic-RP you've described is totally unfamiliar to me and so, as a result, was initially confusing.

An FAQ might help to clear up future concerns and misunderstandings of folks like me who are interested in joining but confused by what, to us, is a "new" concept.

Thank you. I think being open for discussion, especially when you don't like something, really helps.

There will be an FAQ, as soon as I catch up with RL and am up to formulating things clearly.
Just so that we don't miss something significant, do you have specific questions that you think necessary, and/or a sample FAQ from another comm that you think is thorough and can help?

At the moment, until applying here, I only actively RP in one community,

hearts_andminds, which doesn't have an FAQ but a pretty good profile page. A detailed explanation of how "fic-rp" works, kind of like what you gave me in this thread, would be really helpful for those folks like me who are used to more traditional RP communities.

In re: item two.

This comm was pointed out to me (and to the rp-mate of mine who asked most of the questions) as an RP and tangentially fic community. I stayed out of the discussion for the most part, but feel moved to say that while I appreciate your vehemence on behalf of your preferred system, not everyone has played in a community like that.

You cite wonderful communities where things work exactly that way, but please realize that some of us* do come from a pure RP environment and are not part of these wonderful communities. A little understanding would be appreciated.

*the round robin format isn't one I'm comfortable in, and now that I realize that that's the nature of the comm, I'll wait and try to get a feel for the nature of the thing before and if I applied. With a straight or asexual character, of course, lest I 'squick' anyone.

*nods* As I wrote, I probably got a little angry, and I know I shouldn't have. For which I apologise.

See, while I think I get what 'round robing' ficcing format would be, nothing that I've observed or been part of has been called that.
The comm that I meant little_chicago to resemble, when I started it (

hp_random) started off from an entirely RP comm (

sixwordstories and the hp sws comms that started off it). Most of the writers in the 'group' were - are - also writers for various prompt-based communities (such as theatrical_muse), so, as RP was progressing, we started needing to elaborate on some points more. A character needed to write a letter. An RP setting was needed that couldn't be covered with a few words. Something happened in RP that a character needed to deal with on his/her own separately from RP. RP and/or characters and/or muns interaction led to tangential ideas for variously structured AU's. Etc., etc., etc.

Some of the blocks posted on hp-random remain one-off pieces of writing. Some inspire other people's fics. Some lead to roleplaying (there are threads with more than 500 comments on the comm).
We have asexual characters, we have straight ones, and we have gay ones and we have bisexual ones.
What we don't have is characters that stand alone and isolated from the rest, ones who don't have touching points to interact with other characters. What we also don't have is mun raising fuss with what is posted regarding their characters, because they've already ok'ed it before it's posted. Actually, the most involved stuff has either been plotted together with, or requested by, the other writer.

Do feel free to stick around and watch and get a feel, that would be great! I guess the idea may feel very odd and constricting when written down and discussed; I never had seen it discussed or questioned before, and I maybe botched it. The other comm... as another mun pointed out regarding it, we lucked out, as a group, with each other. Because some there come from writing background, some from writing/RP, some from RP mostly, and some are (were?) newbies, but we turned out to be on the same wave.

Again, apologies if I came too forceful, to you or to the mun of

lt_murphy. No ill-will was intended.

I hope this makes things... clearer. Say, the difference between thick mud and mudded puddle... ;)

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Item discussion: Godmodding/autoing vs. ... censorship?

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